Tipping Point: Colorado River Reckoning

a message from Lucas Walton from the Walton Family Foundation a funer of this event hi I'm Lucas Walton from the Walton Family Foundation we're here today to talk about big problems but also innovative solutions and the state of what is a complex problem in the face of climate change for the Colorado River the Colorado River is Ground Zero for climate change this is a crisis that involves all of us we care about the Colorado River as a foundation and as a family we realize how important it is to America we realize how important it is for tens of millions of people who are affected every day by the ability to have access to water that concerns me for the Next Generation coming down the line I think that there's hope for the future because I see Innovation because I see Creative Solutions and in that we are seeing voices come together to have a common conversation in a way that we haven't seen before that gives me hope that allows me to look forward and say that so much more is possible there's a better version of us out there where both people and the environment can Thrive together if we can come together to find solutions for nature and people we can create an example that communities around the world can look to funding for this program is provided by July 24th 2024 live from the Hoover Dam Spillway house welcome to Tipping Point Colorado River Reckoning I'm mil O'Brien the science correspondent for PBS news tonight we're going to focus on the hardest working River in the nation and the Urgent work that needs to be done to forge a new agreement among seven states two countries and 30 Indian tribes on how best to share it rapid growth in the west coupled with a two decade long drought fueled by the climate emergency has brought us to this moment of Crisis the agreement to share this overt taxed resource expires at the end of 2025 with less than a year and a half to go the clock is ticking tonight we will speak with water managers politicians academics and Advocates all of them thought leaders on this complex subject and we want to hear from you as well send us a comment or a question wherever you're watching this live stream the questions will get funneled to me and I'll do my level best to get them in front of the experts here with me at the spillway house you might say we have a lot of water behind the dam so let's get busy trying to understand the challenges and look for the opportunities but before we do that a word on the remarkable place where we sit tonight rising from the floor of the Colorado River the Hoover Dam stands as a Monumental achievement in American engineering and determination construction began in 1931 the depths of the depression thousands of workers flocked to the Nevada Arizona border driven by the promise of jobs and a chance to contribute to this colossal project the Apollo moonshot of its era a dam in Boulder Canyon was first proposed in 1922 by Arthur Powell Davis director of the Reclamation service and nephew of the famous explorer and geologist John Wesley Powell in 1869 he led the first scientific expedition to navigate the entire length of the Grand Canyon the dam was conceived as a way to tame and tap the Colorado providing flood control irrigation for agriculture and a Dependable water supply C for Southern California it was an essential element of negotiations to share water among the SE Colorado River Basin States mediated by then Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover the talks led to the Colorado River compact in 1922 the foundation of a complex series of agreements court rulings and treaties known collectively as the law of the river the dam was finished ahead of schedule in 1936 creating Lake me the largest Reservoir in the United States when filled to the brim it can sustain the desert Southwest for 4 to 6 years the Hoover Dam is the most famous feature in an expansive network of dams canals pipes and pumps that harness the Colorado River sustaining more than 40 million people and irrigating 5 million Acres of Farmland the spillway house offers up a spectacular view as you can see after all it was built to monitor the Hoover Dam spillways now they are channels designed to release excess water from Lake Meade when the reservoir gets too high the last time those spillways were needed 1983 the story of what has happened since is recorded in the white calcium carbonate deposits on the canyon walls behind me they are a stark visual reminder of where the reservoir used to be two years ago almost to this day the lake reached an all-time low 1040 ft that's 181 ft below full today it's a little higher 1,62 ft uh which is about one year's worth of water at current usage rates that doesn't mean the Taps will run dry then however Lake me is like a water checking account and for the past couple of decades the withdrawals have far outpaced the deposits and that's what this Reckoning is all about for more on this we turn to John Fleck he is the writer in Residence uton Center University of New Mexico School of Law the author of two fabulous books on the river I recommend them to you and those of you true fans of the Tipping Point series will remember John from our previous special on the Colorado River back in November of 2021 a lot of water has gone through the dam s then right John yeah a lot of water but perhaps less than in the past making progress well let's do you know I think we should do a little bit of contextualizing here if we could uh we got this fabulous map here um and let's talk about this region in this River uh first of all this is as dry a region as there is in the United States right I think people in the East kind of forget that little detail right right right this is a very dry region with a single important river at its heart and so anyone who wants to use water in this entire region has to end up looking to the Colorado River figuring out how to get some of that water to the places where they want to live all right so we got this very important Blue Line navy blue line which begins up in the Rockies and ends down in the sea of Cortez there that's the main stem of the Colorado you see some of the tributaries there uh it is uh a river that is uh heavily utilized to say the least I think it's worth we're sitting here at the Hoover one of I count there if you count some of the tributaries could be a 100 dams on the system uh which is an extraordinary feat of engineering uh let let's just talk about that for a moment in the you know the context The Sweep of History how um how big a deal is this this effort successful to tame this River so when the United States moved West um and we wanted to build an Empire here sweeping aside importantly and we'll talk about this the indigenous communities that were here and we wanted to build farms in cities the only way to do that was to reach out and tap into the Colorado River and it took the construction of dams like this engineering Marvel behind us and canals to move the water out to the cities and the Farms that we wanted to build and it succeeded in in marvelous ways like these cities that we know and love places that I've lived my entire life are Poss POS are made possible by our Collective action as a community of a Nation to move this water to the places where we want to use it we we really would not be here wor this R enough this River so it but it is a two-edged sword isn't it uh you know at the time uh the go- go days of reclamation when they're building dams like crazy there wasn't much consideration for the environmental consequences we had no Concept in our sort of cultural value system of the intrinsic environmental values and the values of the indigenous communities that were here before us we they were the Go-Go years we wanted to build these farms and cities and we pushed everything out um aside and and our values as a society are changing and and that creates real challenges for us so it it seemed like Limitless growth for a very long time for a very long time it took us all through the 20th century to finally build out all those dams and cities and Farm communities that we anticipated and planned for a century ago when we started this great Collective project we are we at the limit now we are at the limit now the bathtub ring Su suggests perhaps we have overshot the limit all right so the last time there was a water sharing agreement between the seven states uh depicted here uh and the country of Mexico was at 2007 that expires at the end of 2025 um that seems like a short period of time uh it negotiations are extremely complex when you start talking about water in the west right yeah and and we sort of entered during that time period going back to 2005 and even before what has amounted to a period of permanent negotiation among all the different water users and the states and the communities in the Basin trying to figure out how to reduce our use to accommodate the fact that we've overshot so this may sound like a stupid question to those of you who understand the nuances of the river but why can't everyone just share equally right so everybody has this belief based on all the rules that we wrote over the 20th century that they're entitled to this much water and everybody has a lawyer with a good legal argument for why they get this much water there's only this much water there's not enough water for all the lawyers to be right and it's very difficult for people to compromise and to recognize that my community could still exist could still Thrive with less water even though we have an enormous enormous record of success in using less water it's it creates this sort of limic fear that we're going to run out of water and that's a characteristic of life in the desert this fear of being without water you mentioned the indigenous cultures and of course we talked about the environment what are the chances in the context of this big negotiation that those parties will have proper seats at the table meaning the environment will get its due and so all these Native American tribes that have uh been left out in the cold so it remains to be seen it's it's um frankly for those issues not going terribly well in negotiations right now because the people have the power in the water are reluctant to give up enough of the power in the water to let these new interests have a place at the table so it'll be interesting to see I mean I think as a society we need to come to that Reckoning I don't think we're there yet what happens if the states cannot come to an agreement um so we could end up in court and I've had fascinating conversations with legal experts about the umpty jillion different ways lawsuits could happen but we would if we do not collectively come to an agreement about how to share the river we will enter a legal system that will impose um water use reductions because nature is going to impose water use reductions we can't use water that's not there I don't think nature is listening to judges necessarily right yeah so well that doesn't sound like a very good outcome no it doesn't uh what will be a good outcome is if you stick around and uh join us towards the end of our our live stream here and help us answer some of the questions that are going to come in from the audience so uh as always John good to have you here as a as a co-pilot we appreciate thanks so much miles all right before we get much uh deeper in the depths of all this let's spend a few moments learning some basics for that we turned to an expert has who has worked uh for nearly 40 years trying to understand how Rivers work and how to manage them he is the director of the center for Colorado River studies at Utah State University Jack Schmidt Jack thank you so much for joining us we appreciate your time when obviously Supply is going to vary and climate change is only making matters worse help us understand why the demand doesn't uh respond to the supply or lack thereof the reservoirs on the Colorado River are the largest in relationship ship to the flow of the river of any Watershed in North America so in one sense we've had a mentality that we would always be buffered and protected by the amount of water in the reservoirs the other piece is there are we are a very highly regulated very complicated administrative and legal structure that governs how water is allocated and who can use it it's collectively known as the law of the river the sum of all that is a very convoluted very complicated structure of administration and legality we don't have a structure in place that can adapt quickly to the changes it's a very complicated thing to try to get politics to stay up to speed and its adaptability to to a changing climate the original agreement to share the Colorado River was negotiated in the 1920s at the time California was growing quickly and wanted to tap into the river right away to sustain Agriculture and the fast growing cities of Southern California but farther north states in the Colorado River Basin were growing more slowly they didn't need the water then but they wanted to preserve their right to use it in the future and so the river was divided in two the upper Basin Colorado Wyoming Utah and New Mexico and the lower Basin California Arizona and Nevada each Basin got an equal share of the River Walk us through the rationale on that decision and how it might be uh causing uh problems as neg Neti ators try to come up with a new way of sharing the resource in this day and age 100 years later still the lower Basin uses approximately twice as much water as the upper Basin still we're in a situation where the total use in the Basin must be reduced so of course you can't increase use in the upper basin if your total net amount you've got to reduce has to be lowered the lower Basin States say to the upper Basin you need to also cut in the upper Basin We're All in This Together the upper Basin says we'll be damned if we're going to cut at all because we only use half of what you do you should make all the cuts down there that's sort of the where we're at it doesn't sound like a good uh start for a successful negotiation does it it's extremely contentious in the last two years there have been periods when the upper and lower Basin didn't even talk to each other we have to hope as Citizens that behind the scenes people ultimately realize no we're all in this together we all have to reduce our use but we're not there yet maybe the federal government has to intervene in a more in a stronger way behind the scenes to get the seven states to say we're locking the door we're not letting you out of the room you guys have to come to agreement the states strongly resist that the Colorado River has long been a system in which the states argued that they were in control the Colorado River may be divided equally between the two basins but water rights inside the states are based on seniority first in time first in right is the phrase and farmers were here first so it should come as no surprise that between 70 and 80% of Colorado River water is used by agriculture when you start thinking about how this water is utilized uh you you have to wonder if that those sorts of things cannot be addressed in the midst of these negotiations you are correct and that is a very difficult conversation to have the conversation we don't have that we must have going forward into the future decades is not an upper and lower Basin division it's a conversation about what economic sectors water ought to be used most the best positions the United States to maintain you know its well-being and in that sense you could look at the Colorado River system and say there's no water crisis at all you're using more than half the water as livestock feed you're using 70% totally on agriculture and you could say well does that make sense or should we reallocate and use the water to get the most economic return but that is largely a forbidden Topic in these negotiations so really the most important discussion is forbidden yes Jack there are a lot of people who say the solution to this really is to make more water desalination uh as a solution now that's very expensive water but uh maybe there is a solution there or would you say not I think that in selected locations desalination is an option but as a systemic solution to the problem the numbers are just far too big that in the foreseeable future it's really hard to imagine that there's any solution there any more than there is a solution in fanciful ideas of building pipelines from the Missouri River or the great lakes or down from Canada conservation and making agriculture more efficient Remain the the focus of how we're going to get out of this Jack Schmidt thank you so much for your time thanks it's been great thanks for the invitation to talk joining me now is the 24th commissioner of the Bureau of Reclamation Camille calimlim Tuton the bureau she heads manages right here the hooverdam the most famous of more than 20 significant dams on the Colorado River and its tributary she and Reclamation are right in the middle of these high stakes negotiations to figure out how to share the river thank you so much for joining us Camille we really appreciate you flying in for this welcome to Hoover Dam I'm happy to be here it's it's great to be here what a it's a spectacular place it really is let's talk a little bit about the hey days of reclamation back when they were building dams like crazy they didn't talk much about conservation in those days I assume that's a big part of what you're talking about today what is what is Reclamation doing these days to eek out as much water as it can from this system well you started our conversation about where we were almost uh two years ago to the day of hitting Lake me hitting the lowest level since filling in 1937 and today we are 20 feet higher part of that is because of record conservation in the Colorado River Basin we have an agreement of 3 million acre feet of which we are more than halfway there to be able to ensure that this Lake and this system that 40 million people rely on is stable and now we can talk about the future some of this had to do with the unusually wet winter which helped uh the conservation that is currently in place is it enough to get you across the Finish Line surely there has to be more when we look at what happened in water year 2023 we were able to save that water as well as use less water so the lower Basin on its own used less water in 40 years and so it is a combination of doing more with less and when you do get these rains and uh snows to be able to save that as well all right we were talking a little bit earlier about earmarking water for the environment an idea which in the early days of reclamation would never have been on the table at all uh it's very much a priority now I hope we all hope right what is I know that the Biden Administration has made this a priority tell us a little bit about is doing in that front absolutely uh there are so many values in the Colorado River system that we've talked about the ecosystem is incredibly important between Glen Canyon and Hoover Dam is the Grand Canyon and so we uh as part of President Biden's investing in America agenda on Monday just announced bucket 2E bucket 2 ecosystem where we can invest in projects across the Basin that look at bringing that back to life and bringing restoring health Within These important watersheds and ecosystems it's hard to walk things like that back after all the concrete has been poured and all the water has been diverted isn't it well you can be more creative about it and we have very creative Partners all right let's talk about these negotiations you're right in the middle of them you're in the room um what's it like being in the room right now what's the what's the tone of the of the negotiations well there is a lot of conversations happening there are certainly the seven Basin states there the the 30 Sovereign Nations and we also are talking with the country of Mexico and so what I take as a threshold matter is the people that are in the rooms with me are committed to a path forward and one that we can do together and I am confident in our relationships and in the track record of this river that we will get there we have a viewer question I'd like to throw in the mix here this one comes from John tights in Helena Montana uh the competition between um uses of water agricultural versus domestic will ultimately NE necessitate a shift to priority of use He suggests how will that shift be accomplished without violating the primary tenants of the compact first of all would you accept that that shift is inevitable when I've had the opportunity to go across the Colorado River what my favorite part is is being invited into people's homes and what the Colorado River means to them so when you look at the Yuma and Imperial Valley it is a strong agricultural community in the same sense that you can go to the hila River Indian Community and see what those values are to them I'm from Las Vegas Lake me was in my backyard growing up and I know what that River means to me and so as part of our path forward it's recognizing all of our values in light of climate change and how we go through this together all right you heard Jack smid he says lock the doors and make them come to an agreement have you thought about bringing a padlock to the next meeting I like to be able to bring a sense of urgency but also I know that my my team and with have been the of reclamation and all of the people that we talk with are committed to moving as quickly as we can to have a path forward for the future by all accounts they're not very close right now would you agree with that we are moving in the path we need to move all right we have an election this year I've heard and uh um my understanding is that it might be difficult to get anything accomplished in the context of that because some states that are significant might have ruffled feathers does this kind of put things on hold until after November I'm committed to what we need to do what's right by the river is that we need an operating plan by the end of 2026 and we are when you look at what's at stake 40 million people I know that my partners are there with me to be able to do that and my team here at the Bureau of Reclamation that some of that you met today you know they're committed to this this is not just a professional mission for us it's personal we live in the communities we serve and so we are 100% committed to to doing what's right by the river and finding a path forward the the management of this River raises all kinds of issues about how our Republic is governed and there's a recent Supreme Court ruling uh involving the Rio Grand River which where the Supreme Court came down and said you know when it comes to Interstate um agreements treaties with other nations the federal government you know has a right to be in play there what about the idea of federalizing the management of the river more obviously this is a federal facil facility and there's a lot of that but the states are in are are take ownership over this process should the federal government take uh Stronger initiative in order to come up with something that is practical and reasonable for the whole nation what I saw from that recent ruling was the shest way to have certainty is to do it together and that is what I'm committed to so do do you think the the federal government should be doing more though be taking more of a forceful position on this uh and and sort of demanding these states come together our track record has always been working with our partners that hasn't changed in 122 years and that is what we're committed to doing into the future all right Madame commissioner thank you so much thank you for the time it's great to see you yeah glad you glad you came Camille cam uh totin we appreciate your time the Colorado River is spectacular but compared to other big rivers in this country it's kind of a lightweight the flow of this river is a little more than 2% of the Mississippi the Colorado might be a pipsqueak but it punches way above its weight it's one of the most heavily utilized rivers in the world in the same league as the Ganges the yellow and the Nile so how is this water used or perhaps misused in the Arid Southwest well it may not be what you're thinking when many people think of wasted water in the west they think of this the famous Fountains at Bellagio on the strip in Las Vegas but the fountains and the lake are fed by an aquifer and it's all recycled conserving the municipal Supply which is piped in from Lake me and Las Vegas has placed some big bats on water conservation the city reclaims almost all of its water used indoors it is treated and then either returned to Lake me or used for industry or irrigation of golf courses and public parks the Southern Nevada Water Authority runs a cash for grass program paying property owners who replace their thirsty Lawns with water efficient Landscaping this program has saved billions of gallons of water by removing millions of square fet of grass the city strictly enforces water ing schedules encourages drip irrigation systems finds violators that waste water and uses smart meters to provide realtime data on usage Las Vegas is a poster child for thrifty use of municiple water many other big cities in the west take a similar approach in Denver they run an awardwinning campaign to encourage residents to be mindful of water use they offer rebate for water efficient appliances fixtures and irrigation equipment they promote smart irrigation controllers and they have incentives for people to replace traditional Lawns with drought resistant Landscaping the city treats and repurposes waste water for uses such as irrigation and Industrial processes and Denver water is testing the waters on a controversial but likely inevitable idea Direct pable reuse treating waste Waters to a level safe for drinking and then piping it right back into people's homes joining me now are two Pioneers in the world of water management Pat mroy is the former head of the Southern Nevada Water Authority Jim lockhead ran Denver Water for 13 years both have played crucial roles in reshaping the dialogue around water use and conservation in the Colorado River B welcome to you both thank you for having me yeah we really appreciate you coming in let's talk about that that idea at the end which I think is uh you probably have had a little more familiarity with Jim this idea of treating water and sending it right back home a round trip that's that's a a hard one for a lot of people to get used to tell me a little bit about those efforts it's hard and it's being done in Southern California on a on a pretty big scale It's relatively easy to do when you're on an ocean and you can deal with a discharge of a Brin stream it's really tough in an inland Community like Denver where you have uh pollutants that are coming out of the water salt that is coming out of the water what do you do with it to dispose of it at scale so it's an it's an idea that we're interested in uh and testing uh but the technology just isn't quite there yet it's also expensive to our customers yeah now so Pat in your case you have the advantage of Lake me as a way to send that water back and return it right tell me how that works here well we essentially have a closed Loop we bring the water in from the Colorado River uh through our treatment plants deliver it to our customers everything they use inside it goes back to a treatment plant is treated and we return it to Lake meat for every gallon we put back in Lake me we can take an additional gallon out so if the water that's indoors really is in a closed loop and and you're your goal is to do your best to stop people from washing their cars essentially I mean it comes down to think like that doesn't it it does the only place we lose water is outside use so that's why we attacked Turf first because it was the number one water hog in southern Nevada and people have ripped grass out left and right and that was an incentive plan you did something similar Jim as well when you're running Denver Water uh it seems quite literally like kind of low hanging fruit if you will uh but has that been successful as well it has what we call it is non-functional Turf which is grass you see on Center strips on um Street Scapes that the only thing they see is a lawnmower it's not really even being used and so um we've developed a program based on the Las Vegas program to pay customers to remove that non-functional Turf get it out of our system and what we call Colorado scape the landscape and make it more appropriate to the environment that we live in so Lawns are a big deal aren't they they really take up a lot of water don't they they do most outside when I move to Las Vegas and next month it'll be 50 years for me living here you came as a baby obviously right no I was little older than that everyone had tropical Landscaping they were growing Bermuda gr uh Kentucky Blue Grass we were growing La Oleanders and you know everything that you want to find in Florida and in the tropics that was what Las Vegas had and all that has changed what percentage is it represents lawn watering that kind of irrigation Jim do you know off hand during the irrigation season it's about 50% wow yeah so that's a big deal when you start getting Lawns out all right we have a question for one of our viewers this comes from Mike Maxwell Las Vegas Nevada we've known for decades that water was becoming more scarce in the west and now we know climate change will only make matters worse how then is it at all defensible that there are still dramatic population growth in cities like Las Vegas for example when water supplies continue to dwindle how do local governments justify massive new development of residential homes and Industrial sites the question isn't whether you grow the question is how you grow I mean in southern Nevada we are using less water today we're down to what about 220 230,000 acre feet a year and when we started we were at 360 so and we have increased the population by half a million people so it's how the individual uses that water how water-wise can they be and can we take that water drop and stretch it and make it more usable by more people and more Industries it it seems like the math doesn't add up Jim when you talk about that kind of growth and that kind of reduction in water use happens all over the West yeah the answer is in density uh we have to grow more densely we have to avoid sprawl growth of large lot subdivisions that have large amounts of irrigation we need to live more efficiently um and that makes sense not just from a water standpoint but from a transportation standpoint from an energy standpoint across the board responding to a changing climate is going to require uh better land use and a better relationship between land use and the natural resources that we depend upon now the overall cut that I think everybody's trying to achieve no one knows exactly how it's going to be divvied out is about 20% as I understand it um is conservation alone going to get us there across the yeah yeah it dep mathematically you can do it the question is who does it and who carries the burden and does everybody carry the same level of Burden how is it rolled out it's not that it's impossible to do is the issue is who does it would you that's the essence of the negotiations between the seven states overuse over the last 25 years has been about 20% so you need to figure out who's going to make those cuts of 20% the states have had an opportunity to reach a comprehensive agreement about how not only they're going to reduce those demands but how they can weave that into Environmental Protection um and how they can do it comprehensively building resilience in the system and how they can fund it um and that challenge is still in front of them as we've heard previously so Pat is it time to think long and hard about making water desalination absolutely in the Middle East that's a big deal obviously absolutely and it's look I've of always said you can't just have one arrow in your quiver one of the foundational Notions for climate change for water managers is that you have to have some level of diversity it's not going to be the Silver Bullet but will it be one of the Mosaic pieces that can help manage the river system I'm absolutely convinced it can be well Jim I I know there are desel plants in San Diego I Australia there you pick a lot of places that are moth balled because the water turns out to be so expensive it's not worth turning them on is is Pat on to something here or not it's something that needs to continue to be explored um and it needs to come at the right time it's a huge capital investment it's a huge operating cost and there are these plants throughout the world that have been built and then aren't being used for large periods of time and are just sitting there so it needs to be very carefully brought into the uh the pallet of options that are available to municipalities the big mistake they made in Sydney and Australia is they planned the desalter to only be used during drought periods rather than making the desalter part of the base load and allowing the fresh water that then comes back to be allow used environmentally I mean it was like an upside down thinking process well maybe that technology has progressed potentially technology has progressed and the key is going to be finding energy sources for this T cell that don't add dramatically to the carbon footprint because we've got to be able to manage that as well let's shift a moment to the negotiations uh you both have been in the rooms when these talks occur since 94 we've been at and you know we got the upper base and lower base and you can do a little uh mud wrestle if you want whatever but here's the here's the question um I think it's worth for a national audience to explain the fundamental difference here um Jim there are people in the upper Basin in in Colorado Wyoming and Utah the deal with water shortages almost routinely uh the advantage of course down here is you have these two giant reservoirs to kind of cushion the blow how much does that factor into what um the upper Basin states are saying at the negotiation table right now it's at the heart of what the upper Basin states are saying um because of the fact that upper Basin water users uh are dependent on hydrology because they take shortages every year because they don't have the benefit of the bank account of the storage reservoirs that's been drawn down by the lower base States the upper Basin states are saying that the lower Basin first of all needs to take shortages first and maybe take all of the shortages um and there's not really a discussion about kind of an all-in approach um about who takes what cuts and when but having a basinwide solution available to everybody and that's at the end of the day when we were arguing back and forth um between Las Vegas and and Colorado and between lower Basin upper Basin in 2007 and before um we built relationships we came to understanding about the needs of each of our constituents and we built we tried to build solutions that would address all of those things so from a lower Basin perspective first of all that that idea of compromise did would you agree that's the way it worked in those days oh absolutely there wouldn't have been an interim Surplus an interim shortage none of that would have happened that those first years were critical and I know you're going to have Bruce babit on later I have to give him a lot of credit for it I mean he was the right person in the right seat at the right time and from the lower Basin perspective the lower Basin is saying look this is a basinwide problem the upper Basin needs to come to the table the magic is going to be how and when does the upper Basin come to the table and how does that play out so Jim the lower Basin has agreed to significant cuts and correct me if I'm wrong is agreeing to split further cuts that might materialize down the road um is is that an untenable position or is that a reasonable compromise you think well the the the cuts that the lower Basin have agreed to take are incredibly significant and the lower Basin has already implemented a number of cuts their total water use has gone down from 7.5 million acre feet to 5.8 million acre feed um as Pat said the the question is when does the the upper Bas step to the table it may not be a 5050 sharing Arrangement past 1 and a half million acre feet it may be something else but they at least need to start talking about it and right now um at this point in time there's just an exchange of legal positions so it it seems as if in addition to a scarcity of water there's a scarcity of statesmanship here and why is that do you think Pat mentioned secretary babbit um the federal government has played a leadership role historically in the success esses that we've had in the past the federal government is undergoing an environmental impact statement process right now to look at operational guidelines that will be developed by the end of 2026 and the federal government can use that leverage to bring the states together to reach agreement and with the not too um subtle threat that if the states don't come to an agreement the federal government will do something because the federal government has to do something my understanding is out here that's the last thing people want the federal government coming in and and making those decisions right that's particularly issue in the upper Basin right I mean there it is State's rights I mean we down here in the lower Basin we're all federal contractors I mean in order to use water in the lower Basin you have to have a contract with the federal government so the Southern Nevada Water Authority has a contract with interior and the Bureau of Reclamation cap has one Metropolitan has one IID has one in the upper Basin that is not the case it is totally State controlled okay so the clock is ticking uh the negotiating positions seem to be very far apart couple of Veteran water buffalos retired here uh weigh in now if you would and give some Sage advice what would you say to make these negotiations get off uh dead center Jim you first you asked the question about locking them in the room I would lock them in a room um and I think that the process needs to also have further Outreach um and then I think also be put on the table is not just how Lake me and and Lake Pal operate but a comprehensive solution of Environmental Protection and long-term sustainable funding to make these put these tools in place to bring the system into balance Pat it sounds like an awfully big deal over an awfully long period of time can make it happen it can happen much quicker and we were laughing off camera before we came on that's exactly what we did to get to the 20 7 agreement we were lo I wouldn't let anybody go eat dinner until we came to a certain point in the negotiations and at some point you just have to do it my best advice to them is get to know your neighbor get to understand where they're coming from on their level it's not just about you it's about everybody but you can't find a solution if the solution only benefits you all right you guys look tan rested and ready why don't you suit up and get in listen give us give us a couple hours we'll fix it thank you so much Pat Mar Jim lockhead when asked why he robbed banks the notorious bank robber Willie Sutton quit because that's where the money is so where is the water in the Colorado River Basin we've established it's not in Las Vegas or Denver around here the water is down in the farm here's something to think about next winter when you're grazing at the salad bar the lettuce you will eat is about 90 to 95% water and that water most likely will come from the Colorado River 90% of the leafy vegetables consumed in the US from November to March are grown here in the Imperial Valley of California and Yuma Arizona there's about 700,000 Acres of Farmland here a man-made agricultural Oasis the soil here is exceptionally fertile enriched by thousands of years of aluvial deposits containing fine silt clay and organic material from the Colorado River there is of course plenty of sunshine and heat for a year round growing season and much of this land is below sea level there's about 300 ft of elevation difference between the river and the valley so in 1901 when early European settlers dug the first Canal gravity did the rest voila a desert transformed just add water with water rights that go back that far the Imperial Irrigation District has ultimate seniority remember first in time first in right as a result Farmers here hold the largest single allocation of Colorado River water more than 10 trillion gallons per year that is 70% of California's total share of the river we are joined Now by JB Hami who grew up in a farming family in the Imperial Valley he became the head of the Imperial Irrigation District and is now the chairman of the state's Colorado River board he is California's lead representative in all interstate and federal matters regard ing the river including the current negotiations JB welcome thanks for having me I I want to talk about these negotiations but first let's talk a little bit about the Imperial Valley your roots uh tell me a little bit about what's produced there we talked about the produce but there's a lot of alfalfa as well and uh that could be a controversial subject because it's relatively thirsty and pretty good uh sizable proportion of it gets exported to places like Saudi Arabia how much Alfalfa is grown there how much of it gets exported so the Imperial Valley um irrigates about 450,000 Acres which is a tremendous volume of land that uses a little bit of water and of that we have a tremendous amount of vegetables and other fruits uh that are grown in the Imperial Valley and a substantial component also is some forage crops that are used mostly domestically within our state uh for the dairying industry and makes its way around the world as well as part of a global market that our Farmers participate in yeah that that is a a sticking point I think with our our audience they they have uh issues with it Bart Anderson is in Bullhead City Arizona he says why do we allow foreign countries to use our precious water to grow alala the desert to ship back to their country um how do how do farmers in the Imperial Valley defend this so our Farmers uh grow whatever the market supports and the market supports whatever the demands of consumers are so if folks have an issue with Alfalfa that's really an issue with milk or ice cream or pizza cheese or hamburgers or even alala Sprouts at that too but Alfalfa can be grown in a lot of places not just in Imperial Valley it's particularly well suited in Southern California our Farmers have been growing since the the beginning of our agricultural Origins uh it supports those U Industries and it we get 12 plus cuttings a year in the Imperial Valley as opposed to other places within the Basin that are fraction of that all right yeah you have senior rights and I I think we can say with relative certainty that Taps will not go dry in Los Angeles or Las Vegas because there are farmers growing Alfalfa in the Imperial Valley we know that so that the writing is on the wall there in some sense isn't it so I think what we see as a state in California all of our users including the Imperial Valley and the major Urban centers throughout the lower Bas and of recognize there's a need to come to an agreement on what the long-term future of the Colorado River looks like trying to justify each other's uses or argue legal interpretations until we're bleue in the face doesn't really work very well so that's what led us to come up with this landmark first of all a couple years ago In This Very Room lower Basin planned to generate 3 million acre feet of water for the by the term of the end of these guidelines and then coming up with a new plan to reduce our uses in the lower Basin and then with the participation of Mexico as well to reduce uses by 1 and A5 million acre feet a year this bathtub ring that we're seeing behind us that's the visible evidence of a structural deficit where uses have exceeded available Supply and so what our plan does is resolves that deficit and starts to rebuild storage so we have a more resilient Reservoir river system what what are farmers in the Imperial Valley doing to conserve so right now um in addition to existing conservation programs that keep California whole and within our 4.4 million acre foot right as a state that has made water available to other urban urban uses within our state uh farmers in the Imperial Valley have been engaging in large scale conservation programs going above and beyond those conservation requirements making that water available to here in Lake me and then on top of that on top of those existing substantial programs generating half a million acre feet a year uh the Imperial Irrigation District is working in partnership with the Bureau of Reclamation to develop a deficit irrigation program to idle some of those summer forage crops and leave that water here for the duration of these current guidelines to help protect the system all right I'm going to ask you to take your IID hat off for a moment Now put on your state negotiator had you've been in the room with these negotiations and uh I know it's it's had some pretty rough moments along the way first of all just what's it been like uh being in these negotiations have they have they been as rough as it seems well it it comes and goes at different points certainly in for my first couple meetings in this particular role we were at a very different position the reservoir which has uh gained a little bit in elevation over the past couple of years as a result of substantial efforts that have taken place it was a very different situation at that time particularly then you have the other six Colorado River Basin States focused on California and so that was a very difficult time ultimately what we were able to do in California Nevada and Arizona is come up with this tremendous 3 million acre feet of conservation to leave behind in the system here and with the added additions of water being generated by Mexico and in partnership with the Bureau of Reclamation we've been able to improve our relationships improve the health of the system and better position oursel as a bridge as a bridge to the Future you agreed to a 10% cut for your state was that a difficult thing to sell uh to the Home Folks look we have a a need to make massive reductions to be able to address this long-term challenge we've seen um exacerbated by climate change so we looked at that number 1.5 million acre feet we're able to understand the solution at a high level but then we obviously have to come down to who's going to take what and that took a lot of conversations between Arizona and California two states that have historically had very different views and perspectives about their respective rights and paths forward on the Colorado River but we were able to come to that understanding about how we should manage within that 1.5 million acre foot reduction it's something that's necessary and it's something we're going to get done I suppose if Arizona and California can come to an agreement maybe the whole Basin can I'd like to think so and I think it's a really encouraging sign okay what about the role of the Federal Government in this negotiation we've heard a lot of talk about how a strong forceful Federal um presence is important would you agree I think so and we've been very delighted with this administration's role in this process so you don't see any problems on that front I mean would would you suggest maybe an outside mediator for example it's been something that's been used over time but at this point the states have been very much interested in working together and try to sort things out sometimes slower than we'd like what what about changing the lowering the bar a little bit and trying for an agreement that isn't quite as long maybe a five-year agreement is that something that has gotten any traction I think it's good to consider turning all the knobs and levers and see what works to make people more comfortable to commit to the substantial adaptation that needs to be made to handle the future of climate change so I assume the risk of litigation is always present and and in a sense that's probably the worst outcome that everybody could imagine I suppose uh does that ultimately potentially lead to the states sort of losing control uh of the river instead of seven states being able to work out something that we make sense and throwing instead to nine justices and black robes in Washington DC that's really abating our role to make a decision that makes sense for all of us and our users and citizens within our states so it's in our best interest to work something out and make those necessary compromises so we don't have a a Court ruling handed down that nobody's happy with JB Hami thank you so much for being here thank you urban areas are often willing to pay a premium for water providing economic incentives for agriculture users to transfer their water rights these Financial incentives can be significant making it an attra RVE option for some farmers and some Native American tribes I sat down with Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona to talk about that and to gauge his optimism on the state of the current negotiations thank you very much for joining us Senator Kelly whiskey is for drinking water for fighting that's the old expression is there some reality to that in this day and age well my experience over three and a half years in the US Senate on this issue as you know for other issues it's also for collaborating and we've had a lot of success here in the senate in the time I've been here providing a lot of resources for both lower Basin and upper Basin states to really build some conservation into the system system level efficiencies so we've done a lot of collaboration on this issue the upper Basin doesn't even use its full allocation and seems to be taking a pretty hard position on that is that um a a a a danger sign for the outcome of these negotiations well I think ultimately I mean it's in everybody's best interest to come to a an agreement between the upper and lower Basin we know that we have to work together and everybody's going to have to compromise water rights do matter um you know that's built into to the lower Basin proposal the upper Basin has you know their ideas about how we have to conserve water if the levels in Lake Pal and Lake Mead were to go down just got to figure out how we're going to meet in the middle and I I think ultimately we will you don't want uh this to get into federal court and have somebody else who lives somewhere else you know dictating how this how this is going to go so I'm optimistic about it is there enough to guarantee water for everybody and continue the growth and everything else there's clearly enough water um there's enough water to grow our food there's enough water to grow the economy for business to come not just to our state but other upper and lower Basin States clearly enough we just got to be more careful with it so this becomes a collaboration between between industry cities tribes state-to-state collaboration the federal government um two big pieces of legislation we pass provided billions of dollars and resources uh to be able to be deployed to just do more with a little less water you mention this drought and in the last two years we've seen the level in Lake me go up by about 20 ft it's a lot of water some of this is because we've had a couple wet Winters but a portion of this increase is because of the conservation efforts we've taken and then and as we go forward here if you add in uh more recycling of water if we take those steps there's going to be plenty of water for everybody there uh is a lot of evidence that Urban centers are doing this and and have done a good job at conservation in spite of the fact that Phoenix continues to grow water consumption actually has gone down it goes down it's extraordinary right it's gone down since the 1950s it's gone down substantially but then and get this with a lot more people millions of more people so that that's quite a success story but when you look at the agricultural sector which is 80% of the water usage systemwide uh you see a lot of people in your state a lot of uh Farmers still planting things like Alfalfa which are thirsty crops that are used for cattle feed is that where you see the the possibility of making some serious dents some serious Improvement yeah there are possibilities for change there are crops where they can earn as good of a living as a farmer uh using less water know when somebody has been farming a certain crop for Generations it's not it's not easy for them to you know look at another crop and then convert their entire operation but I do know that farmers are doing that is it inevitable then that agricultural water will over time sort of be transferred to the urban environment well I think we can do both I mean I think all of the above is uh an an option I mean we we can't live with the status quo it was getting at a level where there were going to be some mandatory you know Cuts involved um and we felt the better way to do this was to get the conservation we get from you know having direct negotiations with Farmers that helped uh stabilize the level in Lake me and while we're stabilizing the level we're starting these other programs that take additional time building infrastructure takes time you just don't snap your fingers and the stuff is all in place and then the level of water in Lake Pal and Lake me start to go up the tribes often come up with great ideas on how to conserve water uh the heila River Indian Community they're starting to implement one of these ideas which is to cover their water canals with solar panels so you get energy but you also prevent evaporation or reduce evaporation significantly in April Arizona's Colorado River Indian tribes or crit signed a historic agreement that grants them the right to lease a portion of their Colorado River water allocations to off-reservation users the crit water resiliency Act passed in 2022 allows the tribes to lease exchange or store their water entitlements helping the state manage and conserve its diminished Water Resources with their ability to now lease water to you know other entities in Arizona they now have money that they can use to line those canals you line them with cement you don't get the you don't get the leakage anymore you have more water ultimately you can lease some more of that out get even more resources so we we get you know we get ideas from you know all corners of the state um including tribes and when we Implement these we save water and it's just uh a matter of continuing to do that is there enough water to protect the environment too with the pressive population climate the drought and everything else yeah I mean I think ultimately if we make good decisions if we have everybody at the table we NE we' negotiate you know uh in a good way between you know the upper and lower Basin States I I think we could have a you know situation where for decades to come we will have enough water in the west we're all going to have to you know figure out how to do more with a little little bit less but with these conservation efforts we put into place and with new infrastructure and New Recycling I think the um the the amount that people are going to have to ultimately you know cut back is is somewhat mitigated so it doesn't seem as Grim uh excuse me it isn't as Grim as it seems you should I should say you know I mean miles you know me you know I'm a I'm an optimist you have to be when you're the guy flying the the spaceship built by the lowest bidder you got to be an optimist uh but I think in this case you know this situation you know with water in the west we've got the tools in place we've got good efforts by the by the tribes and cities and Industry the up and lower Basin states are still talking about this we've got a disagreement but I think ultimately we're going to figure out how to meet in the middle here do you think a water war is brewing here no no I think what's brewing is an ultimately an agreement between between Colorado Utah Wyoming New Mexico California Arizona Nevada and Mexico uh that's that's what what I hope to get to and and I think we will get there thank you very much Senator welc appreciate it so is there really an agreement Brewing as the senator suggests and if so is this an opportunity to address a pressing need the lack of safe and reliable drinking water on Indian land joining me now to discuss this is Heather Tanana she is a visiting professor at the University of California Irvine law school and she's also an associate faculty member at the center for indigenous Health at the Johns Hopkins University School of public health and she is a member of the Navajo Nation Heather thank you for being here with us glad to be here so um let's lay out the problem here when we say there's no drinking water uh this is something of course we all take for granted most of us but uh on Navajo land it's something that uh is actually very rare right water insecurity is pervasive for many travel communities certainly in the Colorado River Basin but also across the United States broadly and it's really rooted in past Federal policies and quite frankly broken promises well tell us a little bit more about that and I know you and your family have had a direct uh connection to this essentially there was a a long-term effort to assimilate the tribes tell us how that impacts water ultimately yeah so back you know going to late 1800s early 1900s the federal government very aggressively pursued allotment and assimilation policies and allotment mean meaning dividing up tribal lands into individual ownership and assimilation basically purging any native identity culture values and to bring Native Americans into mainstream society and let's not kid about it there were no altruistic motives behind that it was to grab the land to open it up to White settlers and the boarding school era was one of those efforts where children were removed from their families my own father father was removed from his family if you talk to anyone honestly who's Native American they probably have been impacted by that Legacy and I'm only here because my father survived boarding school so basically Native Americans weren't expected to be here today to have native Futures and so this lack of investment in their communities lack of water as atrocious as it is as morably morally reprehensible it's not that surprising unfortunately long past due to write this wrong clearly um some of this has to do with you know just money to do infrastructure and that's been a challenge hasn't it yeah the federal government invested in other communities in Phoenix you know in Las Vegas all throughout the west but tribal communities were overlooked and again that's not withstanding these Federal treaty trust responsibilities that the government should be upholding so it and the Supreme Court it's been a long ruling now it's been a long time uh has ruled that Native American tribes have water rights but it's not very it's not specified uh and the devil is always in the details in this case those rights really haven't amounted to much have they how how can that be changed well you know since 1908 that's the decision you're referencing the winters Doctrine confirmed that tribes have water rights now going about quantifying that can be difficult and there's been strides to do that in fact Senator Kelly introduced a bill that would authorize the north uh Northern Arizona Water settlement and help facilitate water access for Hopi tribe Navajo Nation San Juan Southern pyute and those settlements are important because they often can include big infrastructure projects to bring in that water but there are still many outstanding claims uh that tribes in the Basin have and you know I was looking at this map earlier we have the border with Mexico the States but none of the tribal lands are identified and tribes have very significant rights and there's still some that are outstanding well give us a sense try to help us understand the challenge of getting running water to a place like Navaho country yeah I mean and you know it can be difficult given the terrain but there's been research out there that has shown it's not the rural location it's not the socioeconomic status that determines whether you have water in the US it's your race and Native American families are 19 times more likely than white families to lack that running water and again this is systemic racism that's been built into policies in our country that we have to fight back against that we have to elevate tribal leadership and tribal voices and we're getting there the bipartisan infrastructure law inflation reduction act huge investment by Congress to fulfill those Federal responsibilities but there's still some challenges is that idea of leasing water rights to Urban centers for example does that have some traction and does that seem like a a viable solution well certainly we've seen tribes like Hilla uh River Indian Community Colorado River Indian tribes who are engaging in different strategies with their water rights they're fortunate that they have their water rights Quantified and they can do that that's not a given for every tribe though uh the federal government holds water rights that holds their land in trust for tribes and for their benefit and so there uh needs to be some authorization and approval by federal government to really exercise all those rights but it's certainly something that we should be considering it's something that some tribes are already doing it's one of those tools that we can look at could it fund some of this infrastructure potentially oh absolutely yeah so um the tribes were not at the table in 1922 for the famous or Infamous Colorado um River compact uh and clearly that's just what you were talking about this historical racism uh at this stage of the game with you know reaching the limits of the river in many respects you would think that this would be a bad time to try to say hey what about us but in a way is there an opportunity for the tribes to get a proper seat at the table and do you think that's happening yeah I think the dialogue has really changed in the last five years especially uh you know tribes they're rebuilding that capacity yes they lost a lot of Future Leaders from the boarding school era from other actions by the government but if you look at tribal leadership today a lot of women indigenous women are driving water uh governance water decisionmaking we have scientists like Dr carleta Chief and Dr toi Cordova who are informing and helping their tribe make these really important decision they're stepping up and claiming those roles whether or not people want them to the fact that the interior secretary is a Native American I I assume that has something to do with this well I think it shows that she understands the issues she doesn't need to get caught up to speed she knows the challenges on the ground that a lot of native communities are facing and that's a first and I think it does make a difference Heather Tanana thank you so much for your time thank you appreciate it from Headwaters in the Rocky Mountains through the Grand Canyon to its Delta at the Sea of Cortez the Colorado River endures an environmental Onslaught in all there are about a 100 dams enabling 40 million people to live in this part of the world but of course it also drastically changes the natural River there there's no turning back on the dams now of course too many humans depend on them but there are ways to recreate some aspects of what nature intends in Colorado and Wyoming researchers nonprofits and the Bureau of Land Management are leaving it to Beavers they're working to reintroduce them to land where they were considered pests and routinely eradicated the dams that they build so eagerly capture and retain precious Water by Design they create Lush vegetation and diverse habitats in areas still scarred by wildfires beaver dams also slow down water flow which allows sediments to settle out of the water improving water Clarity and quality and the dams recharge groundwater supplies this helps maintain stream flows during dry periods supporting ecosystems and Water Supplies Downstream Downstream the Glen Canyon Dam creates all kinds of adverse impacts to the river environment water is released here to satisfy the needs of electrical generation and the obligations of the sharing agreement between the upper and lower Basin States this erases the natural flow of the river the dam also traps a huge amount of sediment that would naturally flow Downstream creating sand bars and beaches in the Grand Canyon nutrients essential for Downstream ecosystems are also trapped behind the dam all of this destroys habitat that sustains native sometimes endangered species one solution adaptive management meaning water is periodically released in ways that carry sediment and nutrients high flow experiments have been conducted Ed in recent years with some success the River delta is perhaps the greatest environmental catastrophe created by putting too many straws in the Colorado once an extraordinary Wetland filled with marshes and lagoons it was home to numerous species of birds fish mammals and reptiles it served as a crucial stopover for migratory Birds along the so-called Pacific Flyway way but since the 1980s the Colorado River has rarely reached the Sea of Cortez leaving the Delta bone dry in the past decade however Mexico and the US have collaborated to release short pulses of water to revive a portion of the Delta it's a Band-Aid but it's working let's talk a little bit more about the river and the environment for that we are joined by Karen Quan who is an associate Project Director at the Colorado River sustainability campaign Karen is a lawyer who has a remarkable grasp on the complex World of Water law when I talk to her I sometimes think I understand it almost so thank you Karen for being here uh let's get right to a a viewer question great gets right to the point Harold Miller of Colorado Springs asked this under the Colorado River compact of 1922 and Western water law no water was reserved for Aquatic Life and the ecosystem of birds and plants what can be done to cure those errors it's a great question I think as many of people before me have talked about today that the values of our our communities have changed from the 1920s to now and we recognize that that we're tied to the river more than we maybe thought we were in 1920s and what we can do now is recognize how to incorporate those values into the operations we're not in a situation of just solving the math problem anymore it it is a math problem but solving the math problem doesn't necessarily guarantee the functionality of the river the river that we all depend on so we need to factor in stewardship and mitigation into our operations how much of it is press releases and how much of it is real at this point there's no one indicator in this complex system that we all depend on that will show whether we're going to be at the brink of catastrophe for the ecosystem and the envir enironment but we have a lot of alarm sounding whether we point to the Delta and what if we Overlook things what could happen we could point to the salt and sea and recognize that even in our good intent of trying to be better stewards and and conserve water it has environmental effects public health hazards that we need to now go back and manage the Grand Canyon if we don't think about how to operate Glen Canyon Dam we risk sacrificing the environment in the Grand Canyon so we have alarms we have alarms catastrophic wildfires have been happening more frequently in California in Colorado Utah so all of those kind of things we're at the brink I think we need to start listening uh you know it's um very difficult to imagine how you get anywhere close to what this natural River was like I mean we know that's not going to happen right so how do you sort of pick what to go after what's practical how how how much of the environment can be restored I know that's a tough question it is a tough question and I think depending on where you ask and who you ask the answer might be a little bit different but I think at a baseline level we need to maintain the functionality of the system the the actual living natural systems that sustain and us all including the birds and the fish and the wildlife that that call Colorado River their home as well and so I think we need to really start focusing on making sure we have for example healthy forests that will sustain our Headwaters that feed the entire system we need to preserve and restore some of the wetlands so that we can make sure our groundwater systems can Main and our soils can still continue to operate and provide the economic benefit that we're all looking for I think there's you know the connectivity of the river itself if we have no water in the system if there's no water running through the Grand Canyon we have a huge environmental disaster those are those are lwh hanging fruit things that I think we should factor into our management going forward so is the environment finally at the table in in a meaningful way you think it depends the table is a little bit of a a misnomer right now we don't know where the table is it moves around a lot so I think the environment is being factored in in the conversation where it lands is a whole another story We thanks to as just commissioner um truen just identified we have you know this upper Basin bucket to ecosystem funding that is that is a big deal and we are very grateful to have that be injected into the into the conversation but are we at the at the table is the environment at the table I think every individual and leader state representative can factor in the environment in their equation in the formula and that's what needs to happen well it's uh there is water occasionally going into the Delta and that was uh an unprecedented moment where water got actually allocated for the environment right so that is there a yes A turn here there can be there have been examples of it and I think the Environmental Conservation groups were a big factor in that that play it was a long conversation and negotiation in and of itself but we there was an appeal between the United States and Mexico the seven states of the Colorado River Basin and the conservation groups to find a way to conserve water that could then be a pulse flow to the Sea and it's showing that with creativity and cooperation we can we can restore things well you see the tub brings here it's a diminishing resource and um it's a fractious negotiation M how um optimistic are you that the environment can you know still get its seat at the table in the midst of this um this fight over something that is becoming more and more scarce I'm an optimistic heart so I I am a little bit optimistic I I think that the alternative is so devastatingly to the environment that we have to try and we have to get at the the table and make sure and remember remind people that it is in their best interest to work to preserve the systems that they depend on for all of our our economies our societies our cultures going forward I I am optimistic because we have the relationships with the right people to be able to factor that in and it's all in our interest we was talking to Heather right before you came up connect the environment to the tribal interest because there is kind of a relationship there oh there's a huge relationship I think we learn from the tribes how to um value the environment better how to factor it into our lifestyles how to rever it in some ways I I I think I'm I will definitely not ever be able to speak for tribes but to to learn from them of how um uh water is life the Colorado River is the lifeblood for them I different people have different ways of looking at it but revering the environment and recognizing how it fills into the society and the way we live is not a bad thing to remember just give us a couple of words here give us a little poetry on the uh the Colorado River the the intrinsic value of this place it's stunning we we we all of us in this nation own a piece of the beauty here and it should be a part of the discussion shouldn't it it should be I think you know I'm a native of the Bas and as many Native you know not indigenous native but of this space and I think all of us are very passionate about where we live and what what it means to us and I I hearken back to the movie river runs through it it's like I'm haunted by Waters because they they permeate everything that we do here Karen Quan thank you very much we're going to ask you to stay here and help us field some questions in just a moment but uh we going to turn to one other person a special guest right now as governor of Arizona and the only interior secretary to serve in the Clinton Administration Bruce babbit has long been a strong advocate for finding a way to manage and utilize the Colorado River sustainably I sat down with him recently in Washington Governor thank you so much for taking the time who owns the Colorado River the United States of America owns the Colorado River but the answer is not that simple we are in a federal system in which the states take the position that they own the underlying rights and they are allocated out according to state law uh and that all worked fine when there was enough water the states are now at each other's throats saying hey uh we got to recar this pie but they can't agree on how to do it and we've got the makings of a genuine water War a water war that phrase is tossed around a lot but this one is real because the impass is going to lead into uh a real dilemma where who's going to decide who gets how much water is there any question that some entity or multiple entities are going to have to live with L water well of course that's the underlying fact we are using about 20% more water than the river is delivering on the average the reservoirs are going going dry we' got to find a way to reduce water deliveries somewhere in the range of 10 to 20% uh on the best assumptions that the scientists can make and the question is whose Ox is gored who is going to get cut and in the absence of rules as they expire you can say it's going to be Armageddon on the river it sounds like Anarchy a little bit Yeah Anarchy is a better description because uh nobody wants to give up their water and everybody is going to suffer to some degree and we haven't been able to rise to the occasion because for a hundred years we've been operating on false assumptions about how much water there is and when there's a lot of water it's easy to compromise disputes as they come up that time is over does a strict seniority system work in a world with diminishing water and increasing demand well more than half of the Colorado River water that belongs to Arizona is growing alala down in the desert uh Phoenix is way down the line because the population uh didn't start to really boom until the last 50 years so Phoenix is looking up all of those vast fields of alfalfa saying is this really a good way to allocate water farmers are saying sorry we were here first tough luck there must be a way to cajo or convince Farmers perhaps to plant less thirsty crops or come up with u ways to compensate them for using less is that or is is that kind of a third rail issue in your part of the world well it's a third rail issue but inevitably there's going to be have to be some reallocation rein justment I mean the idea of an equitable allocation of water can't be based on what happened a hundred years ago and five million voters in Phoenix are ultimately going to say third rail or not we determine how water is allocated in Arizona it's been an Untouchable subject so far but that's going to change there has to be a Readjustment a reallocation between Agriculture and the growing urban areas is that inevitable you think one way or another water is going to shift from agriculture to Urban it's inevitable the question is how long is it going to take how painful is the process going to be and what do you do about the economics in the agricultural community of of making this move uh and providing a compensation system in which agriculture U Farmers uh are fairly compensated Los Angeles has begun already to write checks to the farmers in Imperial Valley striking deals paying big prices look 20 million people in Los Angeles can afford to pay a substantial price what sort of responsibility does the Interior Department the federal government have to ensure this negotiation leads to a reasonable outcome the uh Interior Department and the administration behind the Interior Department are staying out of this they're sitting on the bench uh and it's prolonging the dispute because the seven states are said we don't want the federal government that's what they say in public but in negotiating in private the seven states are all s we're beginning to realize we're headed off the cliff until the Char Department gets into the game Governor thank you so much for taking the time appreciate it I'm joined once again by uh John Fleck and Karen Quan for our lightning round of questions from our viewers uh let's start with uh a video question let's roll that one right now hi my name is John Beren and I'm in Boulder Colorado and I had a question about the Basin State proposals that the upper and lower Basin states are currently negotiating I was curious to to hear if there are parts of those proposals that the Basin States would be willing to compromise on and relatedly are there parts of those proposals that the Basin States would be unwilling to compromise on thanks all right who wants to take it I think the answer to that question is uh yes next question I think that that they're they're coming to a table and as commissioner Tuton identified is you know there there's a commitment and a willingness to try to find find the solution I don't think people are wasting their time trying to pretend that they're not going to come to a solution whether they can or can't depend remains to be seen and so we'll go from there the the reality is that the compromise that needs to happen which is big water use reductions in the lower Basin and eventually some contribution from the upper Basin so far the upper Basin has been unwilling to acknowledge a need to that the reality is that's where we're going to end up um and we're going to end up there whether it's through a negotiated agreement or some sort of a solution imposed by the federal government or imposed by a court um but we're not going to Simply drain Phoenix in Los Angeles in the Imperial Valley while those of us who live in the upper Basin do nothing okay so this one comes from genetic memory Farms on YouTube uh why do we not move fruit and vegetable production out of arid parts of the US and bring it East where we have most of the population and plenty of water um these happen to be really great places to grow the crops that they grow there Yuma and Imperial are fabulous places to grow um lettuce in the winter time and it's a relatively small fraction of the total agricultural water use we're not talking about that being the core of our agricultural production we should do that in a place that's good for that we will end up growing less of the Alfalfa and the forage crops to feed our cattle there next one comes from Michael Swanson on Facebook is global warming responsible for this problem would switching to solar or wind en energy help solve this problem another person ask if it might be better if we ate Less meat I would say that global warming or climate change or you know we refer to it as Millennial droughts whatever you want to call it yes the the hydrology has changed in the last 20 to 25 years in this Basin and we have to adapt to it and would solar energy other renewable energies help I think in some ways but we still need to identify what to do with less water in the system to to sustain us why uh John Scott Ren on YouTube asked why isn't there a Futures water Futures market for water and I've asked this question repeatedly water is free here in this part of the world why water is free because we have such a long cultural history of water being free that is deeply bet in our political systems that's not a thing we're going to be able to change um we have to adapt to that reality and I there is no mechanism by which we could start um we could start putting a price on it people have tried Futures markets in water they haven't worked terribly well so it's not something people haven't thought of it just hasn't worked very well it just seems if something gets scarcer it should be more expensive right that's supply and demand I suppose that is supply and demand I also think that uh there's a water is something we all need I mean it's not something that you can hope for and just wish that you had more of it's it's it's life or death and some ways and playing it to uh put it in a water futures of who's the highest bidder who gets all the water is at the expense of some communities that are probably needing the water regardless of how much it costs but but the other thing is we actually have done what amount to markets in water the transactions between the Imperial Irrigation District and Los Angeles San Diego vity Irrigation District in Los Angeles um we're doing that Ken on YouTube wants to know has Utah given up on the lake pow pipeline where does that stand we didn't talk much about that it is a it is a concept that is being developed in Utah to consider how to get water to the southern parts of it close in St George in that area um have they given up on it I would I think you'd have to ask somebody in Utah I think it's still going to be something that is a concept um but whether it develops into something that's real remains to be seen lots of fish on YouTube says there are golf courses and green lawns all over Phoenix how is that conserving water well so if you actually look at the numbers and the satellite data there are a lot less Lawns and there are a lot fewer golf courses and I would agree that we need to move continue to move in that direction all right before we go I'd like to get your thoughts on the negotiation itself what what do you think is going to get the negotiations to accomplish compromise Karen why don't you go first joh I'll get the last word for John I think what's going to get the the negotiations to a compromise is a little bit of reality and time and a little bit of of maybe locking people into a room and making sure that they understand the other side's positions a little bit more a lot of people want to lock the doors John one of the things that we see when you look at the history of the past successful negotiations is the threat from the federal government of an alternative solution that the states will not like I would like to see that kind of a threat we have not seen it yet at least in the sort of public places that we can see these negotiations emerging in public um I think the role of the Federal Government um is critical in being able to either lead or um or or uh mediate to get this going we haven't seen that happen in a way that I can see visibly publicly today all right well we'll be watching it closely John fled Karen Quan thank you for your insights we appreciate it and um we thank all of you for your good questions we also want to thank this American land for their excellent archival video I'm Miles O'Brien with PBS news thank you all for watching TI tiing point so long from the Hoover Dam funding for this program is provided by a for